Dr. Matthew MacDougall: Neuralink & Technologies to Enhance Human Brains
In this episode, Dr. Huberman interviews Matthew MacDougall, MD, head neurosurgeon at Neuralink, discussing brain stimulation, repair, and augmentation. Dr. MacDougall explains Neuralink’s mission to restore movement, repair deep brain circuitry, and develop brain-machine interfaces for enhanced learning and communication. The discussion explores brain health, neurosurgery, and Neuralink’s groundbreaking work.
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Full Notes
Neuralink’s Goals and Dr. McDougall’s Perspective on the Brain
- Neuralink aims to develop technologies to overcome specific clinical challenges of the brain and nervous system, as well as improve brain design by augmenting memory, cognition, and communication between humans and machines.
- Dr. McDougall views the brain as a collection of functional modules, with each module responsible for specific functions.
- Damage to specific areas of the brain can lead to the loss of discrete functions, highlighting the brain’s modular nature.
Dr. McDougall’s Memorable Patient Experience
- Dr. McDougall shares a story of a young patient who had bilateral frontal lobe damage after a car accident and surgery.
- The patient lost impulse control due to the damage, demonstrating the high stakes involved in working with the brain as a surgeon.
Neuralink’s Approach and Experiments
- Neuralink combines existing knowledge of brain function from neuroscience and neurosurgery with robotics, machine learning, computer science, and novel device development.
- The company is working on overcoming specific movement disorders such as Parkinson’s and other deep brain function disorders, as well as augmenting the human brain for better performance.
- Dr. McDougall has a radio receiver implanted in his body to overcome daily life challenges and demonstrate the potential of combining novel devices with the nervous system.
Animal vs. Human Research in Improving Brain Function
- Dr. McDougall and Dr. Huberman discuss the utility of animal versus human research in improving brain function and overcoming disease in terms of neurosurgery and Neuralink’s goals.
Satisfying Experiences in Neurosurgery
Newer techniques for removing small, deep brain tumors
- Traditional approach: cutting through normal brain and disrupting neurons
- Modern approach: 2mm drill hole in the skull, fiber optic cannula, laser to heat tumor under MRI visualization
- Less damage to surrounding brain tissue
- Better clinical outcomes, fewer side effects
Understanding Frontal Lobes and Impulsivity
- Frontal lobes act as a filter, controlling impulses from the rest of the brain
- Example: patient with bilateral frontal damage had difficulty regulating impulses
- Sleep deprivation affects the entire brain, not just the frontal lobes
- Visual hallucinations, motor coordination issues, etc.
Neuroplasticity in the Adult Brain
- Plasticity decreases with age, making it harder to learn new things or change habits
- Machines (e.g. implanted electrodes) not the obvious answer to increase plasticity
- Pharmacological agents (e.g. psychedelics) have a broader impact on plasticity
- Electrical stimulation targets in the brain are more focused and less able to affect the entire brain
Neuralink’s Vision and Goals
- Neuralink, like Tesla and SpaceX, is a blank canvas for people’s hopes and fears
- General scope of missions:
- Understanding the brain
- Augmenting the brain
- Clinical goals: repairing issues in humans or animals
- Specific goals not disclosed, but the focus is on innovation and pushing boundaries in neuroscience and technology “Style” Notes:
Neural Implants and Robotic Insertion
- Neural implant aims to help people with spinal cord injuries
- Quadriplegic patients have perfect brains but can’t move their body
- Robotic insertion device places tiny electrodes in the brain
- Electrodes smaller than a human hair
- Targets motor cortex to regain digital freedom and control a computer
- Robotics necessary for precision and accuracy
- Human hand not steady enough for the task
- Robots can place electrodes at the right depth and location
Neuralink’s Goals and Mission
- Primary goal: reduce human suffering
- Focus on people with severe medical problems and no options
- Long-term goal: brain interface to augment human capabilities with AI
- Still far down the road
- First few indications will focus on brain surface functions like motor control
Brain Functions and Neurons
- Outer portions of the brain (neocortex) responsible for reasoning and problem-solving
- Deeper regions of the brain control mood, hormone output, and wakefulness
- More predictable functions and similar between species
- Example of peculiar neurons: gelastic seizures in children with hypothalamic tumors
- Uncontrollable fits of laughter, sometimes leading to suffocation or passing out
Combining Pharmacology with Stimulation
- Neuralink currently focused on decoding the brain through electrical stimulation and recording
- Not immediately interested in combining with pharmacology
- Tackling the hardest problem facing humans: understanding the brain
Helping Quadriplegic Patients
-
Motor cortex in patients with spinal cord damage is functional
- Neural implant aims to reconnect motor cortex to regain control of limbs
Neuralink and Motor Cortex
- Neural implant aims to reconnect motor cortex to regain control of limbs
-
Neuralink aims to control electronic devices with motor intentions
- Initially not reconnecting the brain to the patient’s own limbs
- Control prosthetic limbs or computer interfaces
- Motor cortex signals transformed into device control
- Complex process, but software and algorithms help decode motor intentions
- Monkeys successfully control cursors on screens in experiments
- Human subjects can accelerate the process and provide more information
Self-Experimentation in Science
- Scientists have historically experimented on themselves
- Gain understanding of what subjects might experience
- Develop empathy for side effects and experiences
- Dr. Matthew MacDougall, a Neuralink surgeon, would implant electrodes in himself
- First iteration of the device wouldn’t be useful for able-bodied individuals
- Future iterations could improve typing speed or other functions
RFID Implants
- Dr. MacDougall has a small RFID (radio frequency identification) implant in his hand
- Passive, biocompatible, and long-lasting
- Used for unlocking doors and storing data, such as cryptocurrency keys
- Implanting an RFID chip is a simple procedure
- Can be done with or without anesthetic
- Demonstrates willingness to undergo procedures suggested for patients
Future of Neuralink and Implants
- Neuralink’s technology will continue to develop and improve
- Potential for upgraded RFID implants with more storage and capabilities
- Brain implants may become more common and useful for various functions
-
Self-experimentation and willingness to undergo procedures can help advance technology and understanding
Implantable Devices and Bluetooth Safety -
Implantable RFID chips for convenience (e.g., opening doors without keys)
- Biocompatible materials, no adverse reactions
- Heals quickly after implantation
- Concerns about the safety of Bluetooth headphones and EMFs (electromagnetic fields)
- EMFs can alter the function of neural tissue
- Bluetooth headphones have low energy levels, not a significant concern
- Ionizing radiation is a more significant concern, but the body has DNA repair mechanisms to handle it
Bluetooth Headphones and Heat
- Some heat generated by Bluetooth headphones
- Not a significant concern due to the body’s ability to regulate temperature
- Blood flow in the scalp and head helps dissipate heat
- Concerns about plugging ears all day with earbuds
- Ventilation through the sinus systems and ears is important
Brain Augmentation and Neuralink
- First goal: help quadriplegics regain agency over movement
- Reconnecting the patient’s own muscle system to their motor cortex
- Future goal: reconnect the brain to the body by bypassing damaged areas of the spinal cord
- Implant in the spinal cord connected to an implant in the brain
- Intact motor signals from the motor cortex sent to the spinal cord
- Acknowledging the contributions of basic research and academic scientists
- Pioneers in the field laid the groundwork for advancements in brain augmentation
- Industry often stands on the shoulders of academic giants
Neuralink and Brain-Computer Interfaces
Neuralink: Elon Musk’s company developing brain-computer interfaces
- Example: enhancing memory abilities
- Example: non-verbal communication between people with implanted chips
Non-Verbal Communication Possibilities
- Texting each other with our brains
- No need for speech, just thinking the message
- Implementation of the same device in a more verbally focused area of the brain
- Bone-conducting implant for silent communication
- Translates neural signals into speech that can be heard by the recipient
Peripheral Devices
- Devices outside of the skull, no surgery required
- Lower barrier to entry and adoption
- Example: NeoSensory
- Translates sound in the environment into touch sensations for deaf individuals
- Enriches experiences for users
- Important to understand the bitrate of these devices
- How much information can be usefully conveyed into and out of the brain
Comparing Technologies
- Neuralink has a high ceiling for potential
- No obvious reason that it can’t interface with millions of neurons
- Other technologies may have a disappointingly low theoretical maximum
- Even if perfectly executed and developed
Assistive Devices for the Blind
- Canes used for navigation
- Translates visual cues into somatosensory cues
- Integration of information from the cane, auditory cues, and other senses
- Guide dogs as another form of navigation
- Sighted dogs can cue users to various situations and threats
- Exquisite at sensing arousal states and danger “Style” Notes:
Neuralink and Brain-Machine Interfaces
- Neuralink specializes in brain-machine interfaces (BMI)
- AI, machine learning, and BMI can work together to improve over time
- Neuralink device and software adapt to brain’s firing patterns
- Humans can get better at using Neuralink devices over time
Neurobiofeedback and Video Games
- Video games can be used as a training environment for controlling BMI devices
- Some studies show video games can improve learning, motor execution, and visual detection
- Surgeons may perform better if they play video games
Neuralink’s Animal Experiments
- Neuralink has been open about their goals and progress
- They have held online symposia showing implant devices in pigs and monkeys
- Neuralink is composed of animal-loving people, but animal research is necessary for medical advancements
- FDA and other governing bodies oversee experiments to ensure minimal discomfort to animals
Rationale for Using Pigs in Neuralink Research
- Pigs are smart and have similar brain structures to humans
-
Pigs are used to show the safety and effectiveness of Neuralink devices before moving on to human trials
Animal Research in Neuroscience -
Small number of animals used in research compared to other industries (food, fur)
- Animal research necessary for scientific advancements
- If laws allowed early experimentation in willing human participants, could reduce animal use
- Neuralink goes above and beyond to give animals agency in research
- Animals never compelled to participate in experiments beyond surgery
- No deprivation or negative stimuli used to motivate animals
Neuralink’s Approach to Animal Research
- Pigs commonly used in medical device research, especially in cardiac area
- Skull size and shape similar to humans, making them a valid platform for safety studies
- Monkeys used for more advanced research, validating functional level of devices
- Play games during which neural signals are measured from the brain
- No deprivation or negative stimuli used to motivate animals
The Human Skull and Traumatic Brain Injury
- Skull has some puzzling vulnerabilities, such as thin temporal bone with a large artery attached
- Fractures in this area can lead to life-threatening blood clots
- Fluid sheath around the brain provides shock absorption and protection against injury
- Most traumatic brain injuries not from sports, but from car accidents, falls, and other accidents
- Helmets may not cover critical areas, but sports injuries rarely cause specific injury types like epidural hematomas
Neurosurgeon’s Perspective on Brain Health
- Importance of protecting the brain and understanding its vulnerabilities
-
Focus on overall health and well-being to maintain brain health and function
Maintaining Brain Health and Potential Dangers -
Alcohol consumption and brain atrophy
- Chronic alcohol consumption leads to significant brain damage
- UK brain bank data shows a near-linear relationship between alcohol consumption and brain atrophy
- Alcohol kills neurons and thins the gray matter cortex
- Amphetamine use and brain structure/function
- Increase in use of substances like Adderall, Ritalin, and Modafinil
- Unclear long-term effects on the brain, aside from increased addiction
- Massive data set being generated due to widespread use
Neuroplasticity and Brain Function
- Nucleus basalis and ventral tegmental area stimulation experiments
- Stimulation paired with a tone led to massive plasticity
- Equal potential of the cortex
- Lesion experiments showed no one critical area of the cortex
- Brain can circumvent massive lesions and holes in itself
- Factors affecting brain function and plasticity
- Species, age, and experimental setup matter
- Adult humans are vulnerable to losing small parts of their brains and discrete functions
Alertness Monitoring in Cars
- Potential for simple sensors to monitor alertness
- Eyelid position, pupil size, or head position sensors
- Drop in alertness responsible for a significant number of accidents
- Tesla’s current implementation
- Small camera near rearview mirror for eye tracking
- Detects whether driver is looking at the road or not
Future of Brain Augmentation and Brain-Machine Interface
- Tackling brain malfunctions
- Addressing addiction, depression, suicide, and obesity
- Improving lives of those affected by these conditions
-
Long-term vision (10–20 years)
- Control over brain functions and malfunctions
- Expansion of human cognition into AI
- Enhancing human capabilities and experiences
Neuralink and the Future of Brain-Computer Interfaces
-
Neuralink’s mission: overcome diseases of the brain and nervous system and augment human brain function
- Public-facing and transparent about their work, including animal testing and technology development
- Robotics aspect is forward-thinking and critical for the success of the project
Dr. Matthew McDougall’s Work and Passion
- Deep love for understanding the nervous system and finding ways to fix it and make it better
- Lives and breathes the mission of Neuralink, even having a device implanted in his hand
- Committed to helping people and making things better
Neuralink’s Patient Registry and Clinical Trials
- Currently collecting information from quadriplegic patients for potential future clinical trials
- Working with the FDA to finalize details and obtain permission for trials
- Encouraging those interested to sign up and be considered for future trials
Neuralink’s Call for Engineers and Scientists
- Seeking the brightest minds to work on the hardest problems in the world
- Encouraging mechanical engineers, software engineers, and robotics engineers to apply
- Aim to attract motivated patients and top talent to help advance their mission
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